Comments on: Liturgy Instruction Video

By: heritage « wonderful exchange

heritage « wonderful exchange — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:25:52 +0000

[...] on Kelvin’s blog, there has been a somewhat prickly conversation about a rather wild liturgical [...]

By: Rambling Rector

Rambling Rector — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:12:47 +0000

There is nothing wrong with white hair.

By: Rosemary

Rosemary — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:32:48 +0000

I am a white haired old lady* – I have spent all of my life as a Christian in Christian churches – more than one denomination, many congregations, some for short and some for long periods of time. In the course of that very mixed experience, I have known many many who were a drag, many more who were terrified. I wish it were not so. I have spent a lot of my time teaching, supporting and helping in an attempt to reduce fear, and enable action. I have worked alongside others, also so occupied. Sometimes, some people have, through the grace of God, been helped to leave fear behind. Sometimes they have not. But, no, I don’t think it is helpful to suggest that this is not the case. I do not think it is helpful to pretend that all is right with everybody in every congregation.

If you wish to say that St Mary’s is a remarkable unfearfilled congregation – that is fine. I would be inclined to agree. I don’t know everybody in that large congregation well enough to comment further, nor would I comment on one congregation in that way. That was not the point of what I wrote. I believe that what I wrote is GENERALLY true. That churches in general attract numbers of those who are terrified and who are unable to face change. In a sense, it is fair enough. We call for the broken, ‘those in need of a doctor’ and we can hardly complain that we have them, that indeed we ARE them. But there is brokenness and brokenness. Problems are caused by the kind of brokenness which is afraid of being broken and of making mistakes, because without mistakes there can be no learning, and no growth.

Of course change is difficult and I suggested that I myself also found it so. It is a hard thing and different people get terrified in different places and of different things. But I think you only have to look at the reaction of British churches to a range of issues confronting them to see how deep fear goes. I think that in individual congregations, that would definitely include issues of worship and of vocation.

(*O.K. The white hair is dyed … )

By: Gilly

Gilly — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:45:19 +0000

Again I find myself in agreement with Pam. If the people in the video had indeed appeared to be full of joy and energy I would have been happy for them and not critical. But all concerned just looked embarrassed. One of the prayers at the end was about dignity and I just saw people who had been robbed of theirs.

By: PamB

PamB — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:12:04 +0000

Not at all – for a start the comment didn’t relate to the church in the video, just the antics which might well have been a one off.
I certainly wouldn’t hold it against a church which for (totally hypothetical) example might have hosted a Consecration which included Liturgical Dance with finger cymbals, freely imrovised descants by Betty Pulkingham – I know, I was that person sitting next to her – or the breaking of pottery vessels on a nwly and hideously expensively restored floor.
As they say, shit happens, and the church moves on.

By: Kimberly

Kimberly — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:55:36 +0000

so, does that mean we can criticize freely the church in the video but may not say anything critical of churches we have known?

curious.

By: Muriel Draper

Muriel Draper — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:02:03 +0000

Right on PamB – I am with you – I felt quite sick when I saw the puppet video. I did not understand R. Hannah’s comments on churches attracting the “terrified and conservative”. She further states that “WE carry people who act “more as a drag than an anchor”. These are remarks which would have been better left unsaid.

By: Gilly

Gilly — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:13:50 +0000

Was that the peace? or the hokey cokey?

And was anyone else reminded of Kenny Everett’s Brother Lee Love?

I’m with Pam, the only people who seemed to have any joy were the dancers and they looked like their’s might have been chemically induced.

By: PamB

PamB — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:36:12 +0000

Sorry, Kimberly, but the words “joy and energy” did not occur to me as I cringed in horror at the palpable embarrassment of these poor old folks as they attempted their calisthenics.
More like – “take me out and shoot me”. or “Hell will freeze over”
But it’s good to know that, somewhere in America, hopefully only in America, the 70s are still alive and sort of kicking.

By: Rosemary

Rosemary — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:41:35 +0000

That is so true in a number of areas, ain’t it? For a variety of reasons, churches attract the conservative and the terrified. We operate carrying a large number of those who act more as a drag than an anchor.

Generally of course, people dislike change. The old jumper, the old chair, the familiar operating system – I would have thought I appreciated change more than most, but I found a new house in a new place and more disagreeable work where I knew nobody frequently plunged me into misery.

And then there is the desire to get it right – the feeling that if we make a mistake in church with holy things God will be especially upset. It is daft, considering the evidence from nature and the Bible on the way God works and is. But we have too much fear.

How we are to overcome all this, I have no idea. But the real gospel keeps getting lost under a blanket of fear and convention, and I get terribly frustrated.