Comments on: The Listening Day http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/ The Blog of the Provost of St Mary's Cathedral, Glasgow Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:51:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Eamonn http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5350 Eamonn Tue, 06 May 2008 10:12:39 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5350 I didn't notice the CARE material, I'm afraid. I was concentrating on what was being said - that's my excuse anyway. But your comment, Kelvin, brings home to me once again how we in the majority community need constantly to be more alert and sensitive than we commonly are. I didn’t notice the CARE material, I’m afraid. I was concentrating on what was being said – that’s my excuse anyway. But your comment, Kelvin, brings home to me once again how we in the majority community need constantly to be more alert and sensitive than we commonly are.

]]> By: chris http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5339 chris Mon, 05 May 2008 23:08:19 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5339 When one of my sons was in Primary 1, he often talked about his new friend Josh. We learned several things about Josh these first few weeks - that he had a cool pencil case, that he was good at writing his name. One day our son had discovered that his friend was something called a Jehovah's Witness - and wanted to know if that was different from us. It was months later that we met Josh and found that he was also black. Our son hadn't found that fact worthy of mention at all. It was just part of being Josh. Until we are as open and as carefree as that with each other we will struggle with our correctness and our carefulness. We do, truly, need to be as little children. When one of my sons was in Primary 1, he often talked about his new friend Josh. We learned several things about Josh these first few weeks – that he had a cool pencil case, that he was good at writing his name. One day our son had discovered that his friend was something called a Jehovah’s Witness – and wanted to know if that was different from us.

It was months later that we met Josh and found that he was also black. Our son hadn’t found that fact worthy of mention at all. It was just part of being Josh.

Until we are as open and as carefree as that with each other we will struggle with our correctness and our carefulness. We do, truly, need to be as little children.

]]> By: kelvin http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5332 kelvin Mon, 05 May 2008 16:06:04 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5332 Thank you all for your comments. Eamonn, I wonder whether you noticed that the group that we were in was sitting next to a noticeboard which had on it material from CARE, with their usual anti-gay campaigns. I sometimes notice that kind of thing and point out to others that it is there and that some people might not feel particularly safe or comfortable in such an environment. I tend to be met with surprised incomprehension when I do. I meet that surprised incomprehension with my own surprised incomprehension and we go on our way shaking our heads wearily. Thank you all for your comments.

Eamonn, I wonder whether you noticed that the group that we were in was sitting next to a noticeboard which had on it material from CARE, with their usual anti-gay campaigns.

I sometimes notice that kind of thing and point out to others that it is there and that some people might not feel particularly safe or comfortable in such an environment. I tend to be met with surprised incomprehension when I do. I meet that surprised incomprehension with my own surprised incomprehension and we go on our way shaking our heads wearily.

]]> By: Eamonn http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5331 Eamonn Mon, 05 May 2008 15:12:44 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5331 What gave rise to your tears, Kelvin, is definitely a bad thing. For me, what you said about the rarity of gay people being lovingly affirmed opened up an appalling vista of hard-heartedness and incomprehension in the Church and society at large. God forgive us all. What gave rise to your tears, Kelvin, is definitely a bad thing. For me, what you said about the rarity of gay people being lovingly affirmed opened up an appalling vista of hard-heartedness and incomprehension in the Church and society at large. God forgive us all.

]]> By: Sarah Dylan Breuer http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5330 Sarah Dylan Breuer Mon, 05 May 2008 14:20:58 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5330 I know what you mean, Kelvin, about how little listening often occurs at a 'Listening Day.' I remember one I attended in which a diocese invited two heteroseuxal white men to give presentations about what they thought about gay people and same-sex relationships. There was only time, as I recall, for two questions to be asked. I asked one of them, and it was this: "What, in this experience of listening to the other person's point of view, have you learned that will deepen your walk with Christ and your pastoral ministry? What insights have you gained from the other person?" You should have seen the blood drain from the speakers' faces. It wasn't a day of listening, but a day of debate, and the speakers clearly hadn't listened to one another except insofar as they could catalog points they wanted to refute. I'm glad for your ministry in the church that confirmed me, and especially for the tears. I know what you mean, Kelvin, about how little listening often occurs at a ‘Listening Day.’ I remember one I attended in which a diocese invited two heteroseuxal white men to give presentations about what they thought about gay people and same-sex relationships. There was only time, as I recall, for two questions to be asked. I asked one of them, and it was this:

“What, in this experience of listening to the other person’s point of view, have you learned that will deepen your walk with Christ and your pastoral ministry? What insights have you gained from the other person?”

You should have seen the blood drain from the speakers’ faces. It wasn’t a day of listening, but a day of debate, and the speakers clearly hadn’t listened to one another except insofar as they could catalog points they wanted to refute.

I’m glad for your ministry in the church that confirmed me, and especially for the tears.

]]> By: Ryan Dunne http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5329 Ryan Dunne Mon, 05 May 2008 14:14:39 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5329 The other problem is that, within certain churches, Christian homophobia often entails settling for furtive gay sex combined with emotional celibacy, thus supporting the stereotype of gay people being incapable of loving monogamous relationships. The other problem is that, within certain churches, Christian homophobia often entails settling for furtive gay sex combined with emotional celibacy, thus supporting the stereotype of gay people being incapable of loving monogamous relationships.

]]> By: Tony Coxon http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5328 Tony Coxon Mon, 05 May 2008 13:05:27 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5328 a propos celibacy. In any context celibacy is a calling or choice, which someone willingly and freely accepts. It demeans celibates either to demand it : -- "as a matter of Discipline" (RC), or -- because they are poofs and heterosexual Primates say so (Anglican orthodoxy). In earlier days in LGCM, it was magnificent to have a ex-monk on the Committee who still willingly remained celibate but openly gay. *He* was able to make the point by his life. a propos celibacy. In any context celibacy is a calling or choice, which someone willingly and freely accepts. It demeans celibates either to demand it :
– “as a matter of Discipline” (RC), or
– because they are poofs and heterosexual Primates say so (Anglican orthodoxy).
In earlier days in LGCM, it was magnificent to have a ex-monk on the Committee who still willingly remained celibate but openly gay. *He* was able to make the point by his life.

]]> By: Alison Clark http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5327 Alison Clark Mon, 05 May 2008 10:32:28 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5327 Just to affirm, as one of the day's facilitators, that the event will be recorded in a variety of formats. None of these will include a list of witnesses, nor any details of their stories. And a personal reflection. As someone who always wants to know what's going on in the other rooms at a party, I understand the urge to know who was there and who said what. The discipline of staying with the bit of experience one is presented with is a hard one, but rewarding. Just to affirm, as one of the day’s facilitators, that the event will be recorded in a variety of formats. None of these will include a list of witnesses, nor any details of their stories.
And a personal reflection. As someone who always wants to know what’s going on in the other rooms at a party, I understand the urge to know who was there and who said what. The discipline of staying with the bit of experience one is presented with is a hard one, but rewarding.

]]> By: kelvin http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5326 kelvin Mon, 05 May 2008 08:06:48 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5326 No, tears are not a bad thing and I have long since learned not to be afraid of them. What gives rise to tears can be a bad thing though and I think we are in the business of wiping tears from every eye. No, tears are not a bad thing and I have long since learned not to be afraid of them.

What gives rise to tears can be a bad thing though and I think we are in the business of wiping tears from every eye.

]]> By: chris http://www.thurible.net/20080503/the-listening-day/comment-page-1/#comment-5325 chris Mon, 05 May 2008 08:03:15 +0000 http://www.thurible.net/?p=5435#comment-5325 Are tears a bad thing? Are tears a bad thing?

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