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	<title>Comments on: Liturgy should say what it means, and &#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/</link>
	<description>The Blog of the Provost of St Mary&#039;s Cathedral, Glasgow</description>
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		<title>By: agatha</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-5405</link>
		<dc:creator>agatha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 14:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>And there was me thinking Helen was just showing off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And there was me thinking Helen was just showing off.</p>
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		<title>By: Kimberly</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4241</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimberly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Helen, what a splendid comment.  You&#039;ve managed to justify Cranmer, support modern language liturgies, and encourage a need to simple booklets all in one.  A rare feat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helen, what a splendid comment.  You&#8217;ve managed to justify Cranmer, support modern language liturgies, and encourage a need to simple booklets all in one.  A rare feat.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4239</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this blog by a circuitous chain of links of Scottish Episcopalian bloggers (I&#8217;m at St Mark&#8217;s Portobello) and being a fan of Cranmer have to leap in belatedly to defend him. What he wrote was:</p>
<p>ALMYGHTIE and mercyfull God, of whose onely gifte it cometh that thy faythfull people doe unto thee true and laudable service; graunte we beseche thee, that we may so runne to thy heavenly promises, that we faile not finally to attayne the same; through Jesus Christe our Lorde.</p>
<p>The bit about &#8216;running to thy heavenly promises&#8217; must have been smoothed out by someone a bit embarrassed at such enthusiasm in 1662 which is when your version first appears. This collect is a response to the Epistle designated in the 1549 Prayerbook, from Galatians 3 (&#8220;But the scripture concludeth all things under sin, that the promise by the faith of Jesus Christ should be given unto them that believe.&#8221;), the Gospel which is the parable of the Good Samaritan (which I presume inspired the bit about true and laudable service), and the Psalm which I think gives the running-towards-God attitude (109: &#8216;Lord, what love have I unto<br />
thy law : all the day long is my study in it. &#8216;). </p>
<p>Further digging online reveals that most of this collect corresponds to the traditional Catholic liturgy: “Omnipotens et misericors Deus, de cujus munere venit, it tibi a fidelibus tuis digne et laudabiliter serviatur: tribue. quaesumus, nobis, it ad promissiones tuas sine offensione curramus.” Cranmer gives a literal translation of this, down to the last clause where he substitutes &#8216;that we faile not finally to attayne the same&#8217; for &#8216;without offence&#8217;. The other change he introduces is the &#8216;only&#8217; which has provoked comment above: I think that given C16th English grammar this could equally mean &#8216;from whom alone&#8217; or &#8216;only by one particular gift&#8217;. Probably the &#8216;modern translation&#8217; would be &#8216;it is only through your gift  that&#8230;&#8217; </p>
<p>I think both his changes make the collect more &#8216;protestant&#8217; (by mid-C16th standards) than the original in theological terms, especially the second one. </p>
<p>One thing I love about Cranmer&#8217;s collects is that they keep the principle of tying up with multiple elements of the readings/psalms for the day: if you change the lectionary, you get a bit lost sometimes. </p>
<p>(I found the Latin collect here <a href="http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/</a> and this is a great website for finding Anglican service books through the ages <a href="http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/" rel="nofollow">http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/</a>)</p>
<p>As for What Would Cramner Do: conduct services &#8220;in suche a language and ordre, as is moste easy and plain for the understandyng, bothe of the readers and hearers.&#8221; (He&#8217;s also a big fan of doing away with the multitude of confusing books that people can&#8217;t find their way around as well.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4221</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I see what chris means with the interpretation - but it&#039;s also possible that the &quot;only&quot; *may* instead go with &quot;whose&quot;: &quot;only God invokes in us a response of service&quot;, perhaps.

Someone must have had a lot of time on their paws to convolute the poor language thus.

Clarifying the second half by introducing a dreaded split infinitive would be the least of improvements, too. Serving here&amp;now to not-avoid heaven? Er...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what chris means with the interpretation &#8211; but it&#8217;s also possible that the &#8220;only&#8221; *may* instead go with &#8220;whose&#8221;: &#8220;only God invokes in us a response of service&#8221;, perhaps.</p>
<p>Someone must have had a lot of time on their paws to convolute the poor language thus.</p>
<p>Clarifying the second half by introducing a dreaded split infinitive would be the least of improvements, too. Serving here&amp;now to not-avoid heaven? Er&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4220</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ll stick to listening for a bit, I think. And sing in Latin when necessary (a language I understand, BTW, but which doesn&#039;t rub my nose in doctrine). And really, God doesn&#039;t need told what God is like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll stick to listening for a bit, I think. And sing in Latin when necessary (a language I understand, BTW, but which doesn&#8217;t rub my nose in doctrine). And really, God doesn&#8217;t need told what God is like.</p>
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		<title>By: Moyra</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4219</link>
		<dc:creator>Moyra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think I feel an urge to return to the Quakers...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I feel an urge to return to the Quakers&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: kelvin</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4218</link>
		<dc:creator>kelvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Collects should be poetic. 

Collects are not poems.

What about lex orandi, lex credendi?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Collects should be poetic. </p>
<p>Collects are not poems.</p>
<p>What about lex orandi, lex credendi?</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4217</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>AHHHH - belief. Well there&#039;s a thing. That&#039;s why poetry is so handy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AHHHH &#8211; belief. Well there&#8217;s a thing. That&#8217;s why poetry is so handy.</p>
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		<title>By: kelvin</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4216</link>
		<dc:creator>kelvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“A &#038; m God, whose people are only able to serve you adequately because you enable them so to do”</p>
<p>Well, call me a Pelagian if you must, but I ask again, do we really believe this?</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://www.thurible.net/20070829/liturgy-should-say-what-it-means-and/#comment-4215</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;ALMIGHTY and merciful God, of whose only gift it cometh that thy faithful people do unto thee true and laudable service: &lt;/i&gt;
I have a feeling that &quot;only&quot; &lt;i&gt;may&lt;/i&gt; belong to &quot;it cometh&quot; rather than &quot;gift&quot; - in which case:
&quot;A &amp; m God, whose people are only able to serve you adequately because you enable them so to do&quot;

If I&#039;m wrong about &quot;only&quot; - and it&#039;d be a matter of the way the sentence sounded rather than anything else - then I&#039;d start asking &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; if the &quot;only gift&quot; could be the Incarnation, &#039;cos that&#039;s your comfort zone, not mine. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>ALMIGHTY and merciful God, of whose only gift it cometh that thy faithful people do unto thee true and laudable service: </i><br />
I have a feeling that &#8220;only&#8221; <i>may</i> belong to &#8220;it cometh&#8221; rather than &#8220;gift&#8221; &#8211; in which case:<br />
&#8220;A &amp; m God, whose people are only able to serve you adequately because you enable them so to do&#8221;</p>
<p>If I&#8217;m wrong about &#8220;only&#8221; &#8211; and it&#8217;d be a matter of the way the sentence sounded rather than anything else &#8211; then I&#8217;d start asking <i>you</i> if the &#8220;only gift&#8221; could be the Incarnation, &#8216;cos that&#8217;s your comfort zone, not mine. <img src='http://www.thurible.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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