Comments on: Collecting things

By: Another Day, Another Mission Strategy is launched

Another Day, Another Mission Strategy is launched — Fri, 28 May 2010 14:34:40 +0000

[...] I know that must be true if its been sent out to us all, but the funny thing is, that it just doesn’t sound like +Gregor. It sounds more to me like the last dying gasps of localtruelycollaborativewholeministryforthewholebodyofall thebaptisedtotalpeopleofgod. Or whatever its called this week. (For more details see this post and its comments) [...]

By: I am a power crazed meglomanian « RevRuth’s Rantings

I am a power crazed meglomanian « RevRuth’s Rantings — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:14:32 +0000

[...] May 12, 2007 by revruth Well, we’ve not have much recently on the Blog-front from the Very Rev’d Provost of Glasgow, but boy has he let rip today. See http://www.thurible.net/20070512/collecting-things/#comments [...]

By: Diocesan Council « Still Striving For That Elusive Halo

Diocesan Council « Still Striving For That Elusive Halo — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:06:46 +0000

[...] discussed. There has been a great deal of debate about one of the topics that was touched upon on Kelvin’s blog and indeed these things need to be discussed, which is why I am left with a question whizzing around [...]

By: Tom Allen

Tom Allen — Sun, 13 May 2007 23:19:03 +0000

The vex questions of ministry and training afflict the Church of England too. I have been in my current Diocese for six years and supposed to have a annual review with one the Senior staff each year – so far I have escaped lightly with a pleasent review with my Rural Dean who seemed happy with the process – though it was all about the Deanery and little to do with my ministry. A smile and a signature on a summary document which everyone will ignore is all that is really needed.

One year I had a letter from both the Bishop and the Archdeacon saying it was their turn – I referred it back for them to decide which is was and they both decided it was the other so life continued pretty much as normal.

Collabarative ministry is essential – not because there are fewer clergy (though there are) but because no one clergy-person can aquire the range of skills needed for leadership in the complex and changing world we minister in. Despite my absence of review I have developed a Ministry Development Team, seen three Reader vocations and two ordained vocations emerge in the Parish, and am now off in two weeks on a three month sabbatical confident that all will well in the parish and a good portfolio of visiting priests. The secret if collaberation to be local defined according to needs and then Episcopally ratified – in too many Diocese it is Episcopally defined and locally and reluctantly ratified.

By: Raspberry Rabbit

Raspberry Rabbit — Sun, 13 May 2007 22:10:39 +0000

In the Diocese of Montreal we had a modest deduction taken from our stipends for continuing education. Can’t remember exactly what it was called. It was matched by a tripled amount from the Diocese and put into a ‘Continuing Education Fund’. One could make application to this fund for courses, sabbatical study, etc. If the idea was good and went beyond the money which had been saved up then some grants were available either from the National Church or even discretional dollars from the Bishop. A few bright souls found a way to wangle a computer or books out of the fund but the intention was to pay for courses that would further the practise of pastoral ministry and the theological depth of the clergyperson. I think it’s a shame that some of us can have the date of our ordination divined by the publication dates of the books in our libraries.

By: kelvin

kelvin — Sun, 13 May 2007 21:46:40 +0000

Raspberry Rabbit – just to say that I cannot remember ever being invited to sit around a flip chart or to undertake any post ordination training with colleagues in the diocese that I was ordained into at all. I know that Edinburgh has post-ordination training because Mother Ruth, who runs it, invited me to do a seminar on the organizational structure of the church. (It was entitled “How to get the church to do what you want” in order to get people to turn up).

In the past, there was a provincial CMD programme which used to put on occassional study days for clergy and people in other authorised ministries. I remember going on study days on the gospel of the year just before advent and also quite a good one with Brian Hardy on the Eucharist. I enjoyed those kinds of things. You got to meet people from around the Province and learn something too.

By: Elizabeth

Elizabeth — Sun, 13 May 2007 20:34:02 +0000

I’m probably not qualified to comment on most of the above, not having much experience or understanding of such mysteries as TISEC, CPD (or PPD or PR as it’s variously called in my place of employment, although I probably shouldn’t admit to not having it) and whatnot. In search of enlightenment I diligently followed up Kelvin’s useful links. . . .

I must confess I got stalled at the title – Total Ministry.

Perhaps it’s a paranoid generation X reaction, but that just sounds sinister to me. I’m sure that’s not what it was meant to convey – but all I could think of was ‘duck and cover’.

By: Raspberry Rabbit

Raspberry Rabbit — Sun, 13 May 2007 19:24:17 +0000

I would say that clergy ought to be given a choice – to undertake to work out a program of continuing education for themselves (in conjunction with a Diocesan or Provincial advisor) or else be asked to partake of the type of post-ordination/mid-ministry which most Dioceses come up with which consists of a lot of time spent sitting around a flip chart. I think that given the choice we’d have a lot more clergy reading interesting books, honing their skills and following their bliss than we do now.

It was, I think, two Provincial Synod’s ago that some body from a Diocese other than E’burgh stood up and asked whether schemes of local collaborative ministry weren’t, in fact, a way of life (or article of faith) but a perfectly acceptable stop-gap until we could muster up some ‘proper priests’. I thought he was going to get lynched. I’m not sure whether he was being delightfully naive or deliberately thick. What was clear is that there were a group of people very upset by his comments and another group nodding their heads in agreement. I agree with our host that were we ever to discuss the issues openly we would have a fairly loud debate on the subject.

By: kelvin

kelvin — Sun, 13 May 2007 15:32:34 +0000

I think that we often learn a lot from people who are not like we are. I don’t think that really conflicts from the fact that we can learn a great deal from people who know a lot about what we are trying to learn.

However, it is very hard to learn anything when you feel put out.

I agree with Ruth that in-service training would be good. I don’t care a bean what the subject of the training should be. It would just be good to get together with people doing a similar job from time to time to talk about it. There are a relatively small number of skills that almost all clergy need which almost all clergy could improve on.

By: vicky

vicky — Sun, 13 May 2007 14:58:13 +0000

Ruth – I think you are hitting the nail on the head – vocational development is ok conceptually, but really quite awful if the folks acting as the developers haven’t ever sat down and reflected explicitly on what and how they do things….nothing worse than tacit habits that allow for smooth working once you know them by osmosis, but can’t be clarified and examined explicitly in times of change? Also, most folk who have to teach/ are called to teach have perceptions of how they are recieved in learning situations based on assumptions that are never evaluated, so personal myths are given a body without ever checking to see how accurate the original perceptions were (I see this amongst academics all the time.) So self awareness informed by real discussion with congregations and supporting evaluaters (spiritual guides from within and outwith the congregations) seems an interesting possibility to me. The philosophy under the ideals of personal development is based on western notions of self-efficacy and agency being explicitly enabled through reflective discussion – the cynic in me is more concerned about the normalizing function of such a thing, but I think the hopes for what can be achieved are of real iportance for vocational training.

Kelvin – arrogance is such an interesting notion for professionals, isn’t it? As far as I can see, we all need to feel reasonably comfortable in competence, disposition, knowledge base and attitudes before we can take the full responsibilities that come with trying to lead folk. So confidence is useful. I think over confidence can mean that we let our prejudices and stereotypes get in the way of readiness to learn from others though (speaking as I am, as someone from a discipline background where intellectual borders of barbed wire are erected to keep inter-disicplinarity and learning from others out in all sorts of subtle ways!).
Also, do you think it is possible that we can learn the most about ourselves from the people we feel the least up to helping us develop?
ps I really enjoyed the sermon this morning Kelvin.
pps. I really do waffle when given a vehicle for my voice, don’t I……….